Next week, read through the end of chapter 20, which will take us through page 220 for those with a physical copy.
Great discussion last time, I was thrilled to see so many folks pop in over the course of the week. There’s still time to hop in, and I know the paperback version of The Library Book is now out if you’ve been waiting up for that.
Here’s some discussion points to kick us off this week:
What do you make of the city coming together to respond to the fire at the library?
Have you got any initial impressions of Harry Peak, the man accused of setting the fire?
In this section Orlean goes into why books and libraries are burned, from personal experience to historical. “Destroying a culture’s books is sentencing it to something worse than death: It is sentencing it to seem as it if never lived.” Did that also stick with you?
John Szabo runs the L.A. library, and naturally he’s an unfailingly wonderful person. Now that you know what a Chief Librarian does, were you like me and did you realize you do not, fundamentally, understand what a library even is anymore?
John Leonard Orr was the L.A. arson expert and arson novelist who, shocker, was also an arsonist. On a scale of 10 to 10, how wild is that?
Comment below, be nice, strike up conversations and don’t hesitate to invite new friends to join up and subscribe! We got a great conversation going last week so if you’re new don’t hesitate to jump right in!
The history of book burning was a really rough one to power through! But John Szabo, oh man, that was very cool to read, lots of Leslie Knope vibes every time she gets into the operation of the library today.
Also, “A meaty vegetarian cookbook” has stuck with me for days.
You're completely right about the Leslie Knope vibes! I didn't even think of that when I was reading it, but now that's all I'll be able to picture if we come back to him haha.
I too was surprised by how many services libraries provide. That librarians are amazing does not surprise me. They make my work as an historian possible. I will offer one of many examples. I needed to read a treatise written in the 12th century. The author was murdered shortly after it was written, so it nearly never appeared. One manuscript existed but was was lost. Fortunately a monk in the 17th century transcribed the manuscript before it was lost. The 17th century transcription was also lost, but again fortunately it was published in a rare book in the 19th century. I could not find that book; nor could the Cambridge University Library; nor could the Vatican Library! I gave up until a librarian at the University of San Diego, Devin Milner, somehow tracked down the book no one else could. Librarians preserve and provide precious and elusive memories like that 12th century treatise, sometimes rather miraculously.
People often try to think of ways to preserve as many documents as possible, but from what I've heard from historians, copying and reproduction of documents is an even more important form of preservation: very few documents are likely to survive, but multiple copies being continually re-copied have much better odds.
So I don’t *love* this book, but I actually keep coming back to it. The skipping around between topics is a little difficult for me - I can’t tell what exactly the main ‘plot’ is and if there even is one. Regardless, what I’m liking the most is the deep dives into how libraries operate. The amount of books that is carted around a town to different branches is astounding. Imagine if books stayed at each branch and you couldn’t ship a book to your personal branch! Being a librarian sounds like one of the coolest/most rewarding jobs ever. Specifically what John Szabo does. I’ve always loved libraries, but I have a newfound respect for how much value they really provide a city.
I enjoyed the bit about Ray Bradbury. I distinctly remember reading Fahrenheit 451 in high school and how I felt at the time that I was reading something special. And important. I think I remember that book more than any other book I read while in high school. I might have to revisit that book after I finish this one…
For me, Harry Peak and his family are the least interesting part of the story. I am more familiar with how modern libraries run as I once worked at the UC Berkeley Library in human resources handling searches for librarians and other professional staff. One thing is certain; we ask our libraries and library staff to do so much more than check books in and out. My branch library is the common space where many different groups can come together. The sections on book burning made my stomach hurt; I can totally get why the author couldn't pick one to burn because burning a book, or any cultural artifact, is just so wrong. I sometimes think about the shift from physical to digital storage; you can burn a book/library but you can also push the wrong button and poof. The thing about books and libraries; if you don't use them it's just paper and a building. George Stewart in his novel 'The Earth Abides' describes how one person, thinking he is protecting the Library (by coincidence the main UC Berkeley library) by not letting anyone else use it. However, 40 years after the apocalyptic event that opens the book, literacy has been lost. Then fire comes, the Library is destroyed, and nobody remembers what was before.
I was thinking about how researchers etc began to create an archive of their work in servers located outside of the US in case the administration ever wanted to start removing them from public access ... which they did. The loss of digital words is just the same as book burning.
Maddy, I too was shcked and stunned to learn about the destruction of so many books and libraries. I did not know the fact about libraries being unwilling targets of war. So sad.
I’m definitely wondering about becoming a librarian after getting through these chapters. The ability to impact the lives of others so closely in a sustained way, real impressive. I love the idea also that a librarian could be paid so well - wonder why teachers can’t be (yes, I know some are, but most aren’t).
In general I feel like this part of the book is really the main part - the why libraries are important story - more so than the arson at this particular library. If the arson was the story the main suspect would have featured more prominently.
Going to be in LA in a few of months. Definitely going to stop by for a couple hours.
As a librarian myself, I can assure you that it is a noble and rewarding profession, although the salaries noted in the book are not the norm for many librarians.
As sad as I was reading about the loss of books and all it was even more powerful to read about all the volunteers that showed up the next day. What a wonderful uplifting moment! The handwritten sign at the library entrance said it all Thank you L.A.! We Will Be Back Bigger And Better.
I recently took a job as a part time library assistant in a very small city in Idaho. I never imagined myself working as a librarian. I just abosolutly love it. It is am amazing job, and there is so much that goes on beyond the books on the shelfs. I don't know what to think of Harry Peak. I reserve the right to see his story unfold before I make an assumption.
Being a Chief Librarian sounds wonderful and stressful all at the same time. I grew up in a small town so the library management there seemed a little easier than a large city library system - which is something I hadn't really considered, all the branches are part of the same library and therefore becomes that much more complicated to run. The number of books that move between the LA libraries every day is mind boggling.
The section about book destruction through history was interesting - I hadn't really thought about how often book burning occurs in war, oppression, and other social upheaval.
It was quite surprising that J.L. Orr was able to delude his peers for so long. That and the fact that he was able to rise so high in the fire department hierarchy, speaks, I suppose, to his masterly subterfuge. I'd rate this a 10 on the wild scale!
The book burning by far had the biggest impact on me this week. I knew some of the instances, but I didn't know how common this was throughout history. It honestly made me incredibly sad to think of everything that has been lost to modern historians because of the burning of the library of Alexandria. Nowadays if one book burns, there's usually other copies so the information isn't lost forever, but back then? Or all the Mayan culture that was destroyed. Really shows the power of ideas though.
It was definitely hard to read. It really made me think about all the books written by women that have been lost to history too. Our knowledge of the past comes from what was written down, and if most of what we still have was written by men, or just by white people, there is so much that has been lost. Maybe critical discoveries it will take us another thousand years to rediscover!
I love this book and feel the same about libraries as Susan Orleans. Growing up my mom would call the library and tell them to send me home for dinner (I was a library rat).
My top title card this week Tales from the Time Loop: The Most Comprehensive Exposé of the Global Conspiracy Ever Written and All You Need to Know to Be Truly Free (2003)
A smattering of thoughts about Harry: I suspect he falls into the "charming wastrel" category of person. It was brave of him to come out as gay at a time when it wasn't very socially acceptable. I was a little surprised by that, the family reaction couldn't have been a good experience for him.
I'll wait and see what I think about guilt or innocence on arson because we have no data yet.
Fahrenheit 451! It was the greatest loss to any public library in the history of the United States!! The book burning part did a real good job of reminding people of the importance and power of books. As has most of the book so far. Also after reading up to this point I'm no longer in any rush to finally switch over to e-books. I'm gonna add another bookcase and see where I'm at when that fills up.
Modern libraries in big cities certainly have changed quite a bit over the years. As for my small city local library not so much except of course for less newspapers and magazines. Plus it is now become like the last video store in town. Btw love the nickname Conan The Librarian for Szabo.
Libraries are definitely a great place to go for videos these days. With new streaming services coming out all the time, it gets more and more expensive to have access to all the films and TV shows. Libraries have them all, for free!
The sections describing how libraries provided information over the phone brought back many pleasant memories. I used to rely heavily on the library’s information desk for all kinds of questions. Slowly over the years, I started to rely more in the internet for instant information. Reading this book reminded me of how much more dangerous that is. Calling the library might settle a bet, but consulting the internet is likely to settle nothing, as so much wrong information is available there. The library was once trusted as a reliable source of facts. I wonder, is it still? I am sure many if not most people would turn to the internet before calling the library and most have learned that that information on the internet cannot always be trusted. Are people now equally suspicious of the information provided by libraries?
The initial chapters of the book are storytelling. Susan Orlean tells a good story and with great attention to detail. When she talks about John Szabo and the current library, her attention to detail strikes me as a fiction writer's approach to reality. Interesting. Harry Peak is the villain. The library is the victim.
She is trying to get us to think of a library as a living, breathing organism rather than a repository. As she goes into talking about book burning and John Leonard Orr, I lost sense of the storytelling and the book seems to wander. I read "Fahrenheit 451' years ago. Nothing new to me. It went from a fiction-writer's approach to non-fiction to a non-fiction writer's approach to non-fiction. Much of my life is fact-centered and information-focused. This felt familiar but I missed the voice of the fiction-writer. I don't know where it is going. I want more story-telling.
I really wanted to love this book, mainly because I so appreciate Orlean’s affinity for books and libraries and applaud her for taking such a deep dive into the subject. Ultimately, though, the book felt self indulgent and repetitive to me. She routinely rattles off five or six examples to illustrate a point, when two or three would more than suffice. She covers issues like the debate over tearing down vs remodeling the library at least three times. It’s almost like she’s checking to see if we’re paying attention. The most disappointing to me, however, is the way in which she handles the true crime elements. She presents some facts and even goes on some flights of fancy but, in the end, doesn’t really have a point of view. She sets up Harry Peak as her go to fall guy, then in the end pulls the rug out by showing that all the evidence could be wrong and she doesn’t really know what she thinks or how she feels about it. Disappointing.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m having issues with the stream of consciousness style of writing between the chapters. There are a lot of interesting stories, no doubt. I just wish the author would have clumped the timeframes together instead of jumping around.
I completely get this. I'm torn between feeling like I'm getting whiplash from the jumping around and enjoying coming back to topics that I thought were completed. I think at the end of the day, I settle on enjoying the jumping around because when she circles back around to a topic I find myself going, "Oh yea! We were talking about this earlier!" It's almost like finding an old friend in an odd way haha. I've also been ready to put the book down for the night, then look at the next chapter and realize it's about a topic that was discussed earlier and end up reading another chapter so I can get more of the story. This has happened on more than one occasion.
I also had a super difficult time with all the book burning thru history. I found it enormously demoralizing how callous we as humans can be about culture, not that I didn't already know, she merely highlighted it in a new way. Then I had to call myself back and remember that I didn't know about all that "lost" treasure 20 minutes ago, so why was I making myself upset?
Walter - I was reading the same Atlantic article this week - I think the shift in libraries is good, but books will always the main need, though there may also be a quantifiable difference in need between college and public libraries as well
The history of book burning was a really rough one to power through! But John Szabo, oh man, that was very cool to read, lots of Leslie Knope vibes every time she gets into the operation of the library today.
Also, “A meaty vegetarian cookbook” has stuck with me for days.
You're completely right about the Leslie Knope vibes! I didn't even think of that when I was reading it, but now that's all I'll be able to picture if we come back to him haha.
I too was surprised by how many services libraries provide. That librarians are amazing does not surprise me. They make my work as an historian possible. I will offer one of many examples. I needed to read a treatise written in the 12th century. The author was murdered shortly after it was written, so it nearly never appeared. One manuscript existed but was was lost. Fortunately a monk in the 17th century transcribed the manuscript before it was lost. The 17th century transcription was also lost, but again fortunately it was published in a rare book in the 19th century. I could not find that book; nor could the Cambridge University Library; nor could the Vatican Library! I gave up until a librarian at the University of San Diego, Devin Milner, somehow tracked down the book no one else could. Librarians preserve and provide precious and elusive memories like that 12th century treatise, sometimes rather miraculously.
People often try to think of ways to preserve as many documents as possible, but from what I've heard from historians, copying and reproduction of documents is an even more important form of preservation: very few documents are likely to survive, but multiple copies being continually re-copied have much better odds.
So I don’t *love* this book, but I actually keep coming back to it. The skipping around between topics is a little difficult for me - I can’t tell what exactly the main ‘plot’ is and if there even is one. Regardless, what I’m liking the most is the deep dives into how libraries operate. The amount of books that is carted around a town to different branches is astounding. Imagine if books stayed at each branch and you couldn’t ship a book to your personal branch! Being a librarian sounds like one of the coolest/most rewarding jobs ever. Specifically what John Szabo does. I’ve always loved libraries, but I have a newfound respect for how much value they really provide a city.
I enjoyed the bit about Ray Bradbury. I distinctly remember reading Fahrenheit 451 in high school and how I felt at the time that I was reading something special. And important. I think I remember that book more than any other book I read while in high school. I might have to revisit that book after I finish this one…
For me, Harry Peak and his family are the least interesting part of the story. I am more familiar with how modern libraries run as I once worked at the UC Berkeley Library in human resources handling searches for librarians and other professional staff. One thing is certain; we ask our libraries and library staff to do so much more than check books in and out. My branch library is the common space where many different groups can come together. The sections on book burning made my stomach hurt; I can totally get why the author couldn't pick one to burn because burning a book, or any cultural artifact, is just so wrong. I sometimes think about the shift from physical to digital storage; you can burn a book/library but you can also push the wrong button and poof. The thing about books and libraries; if you don't use them it's just paper and a building. George Stewart in his novel 'The Earth Abides' describes how one person, thinking he is protecting the Library (by coincidence the main UC Berkeley library) by not letting anyone else use it. However, 40 years after the apocalyptic event that opens the book, literacy has been lost. Then fire comes, the Library is destroyed, and nobody remembers what was before.
I was thinking about how researchers etc began to create an archive of their work in servers located outside of the US in case the administration ever wanted to start removing them from public access ... which they did. The loss of digital words is just the same as book burning.
I was so saddened and stunned to learn how many books have been burned and destroyed through the centuries.
Further saddened to read how many fires were set by Orr! I give that a 10 on the wild scale!
The work of the thousands of volunteers brought tears to my eyes and was soooo heartwarming.
Peak just sounds like someone who enjoys embellishing his life.
I did not realize all the responsibilities of the Chief Librarian nor how many books move among all the libraries.
I do not know about the freezing of books after a fire!
A very enjoyable, moving and interesting reading thus far!!!
Maddy, I too was shcked and stunned to learn about the destruction of so many books and libraries. I did not know the fact about libraries being unwilling targets of war. So sad.
I’m definitely wondering about becoming a librarian after getting through these chapters. The ability to impact the lives of others so closely in a sustained way, real impressive. I love the idea also that a librarian could be paid so well - wonder why teachers can’t be (yes, I know some are, but most aren’t).
In general I feel like this part of the book is really the main part - the why libraries are important story - more so than the arson at this particular library. If the arson was the story the main suspect would have featured more prominently.
Going to be in LA in a few of months. Definitely going to stop by for a couple hours.
As a librarian myself, I can assure you that it is a noble and rewarding profession, although the salaries noted in the book are not the norm for many librarians.
Harry Peak seems more like Kato Kaelin than an arsonist so far.
As sad as I was reading about the loss of books and all it was even more powerful to read about all the volunteers that showed up the next day. What a wonderful uplifting moment! The handwritten sign at the library entrance said it all Thank you L.A.! We Will Be Back Bigger And Better.
I recently took a job as a part time library assistant in a very small city in Idaho. I never imagined myself working as a librarian. I just abosolutly love it. It is am amazing job, and there is so much that goes on beyond the books on the shelfs. I don't know what to think of Harry Peak. I reserve the right to see his story unfold before I make an assumption.
"...and a spill of freckles across her nose."
What a marvelous turn of phrase!
Being a Chief Librarian sounds wonderful and stressful all at the same time. I grew up in a small town so the library management there seemed a little easier than a large city library system - which is something I hadn't really considered, all the branches are part of the same library and therefore becomes that much more complicated to run. The number of books that move between the LA libraries every day is mind boggling.
The section about book destruction through history was interesting - I hadn't really thought about how often book burning occurs in war, oppression, and other social upheaval.
It was quite surprising that J.L. Orr was able to delude his peers for so long. That and the fact that he was able to rise so high in the fire department hierarchy, speaks, I suppose, to his masterly subterfuge. I'd rate this a 10 on the wild scale!
The book burning by far had the biggest impact on me this week. I knew some of the instances, but I didn't know how common this was throughout history. It honestly made me incredibly sad to think of everything that has been lost to modern historians because of the burning of the library of Alexandria. Nowadays if one book burns, there's usually other copies so the information isn't lost forever, but back then? Or all the Mayan culture that was destroyed. Really shows the power of ideas though.
It was definitely hard to read. It really made me think about all the books written by women that have been lost to history too. Our knowledge of the past comes from what was written down, and if most of what we still have was written by men, or just by white people, there is so much that has been lost. Maybe critical discoveries it will take us another thousand years to rediscover!
Amazing the role books has played in culture throughout the world
I love this book and feel the same about libraries as Susan Orleans. Growing up my mom would call the library and tell them to send me home for dinner (I was a library rat).
I was astonished at the number of books, manuscripts, etc that have been lost over the hundreds of years. Had never really thought about that.
My top title card this week Tales from the Time Loop: The Most Comprehensive Exposé of the Global Conspiracy Ever Written and All You Need to Know to Be Truly Free (2003)
A smattering of thoughts about Harry: I suspect he falls into the "charming wastrel" category of person. It was brave of him to come out as gay at a time when it wasn't very socially acceptable. I was a little surprised by that, the family reaction couldn't have been a good experience for him.
I'll wait and see what I think about guilt or innocence on arson because we have no data yet.
Fahrenheit 451! It was the greatest loss to any public library in the history of the United States!! The book burning part did a real good job of reminding people of the importance and power of books. As has most of the book so far. Also after reading up to this point I'm no longer in any rush to finally switch over to e-books. I'm gonna add another bookcase and see where I'm at when that fills up.
Modern libraries in big cities certainly have changed quite a bit over the years. As for my small city local library not so much except of course for less newspapers and magazines. Plus it is now become like the last video store in town. Btw love the nickname Conan The Librarian for Szabo.
Libraries are definitely a great place to go for videos these days. With new streaming services coming out all the time, it gets more and more expensive to have access to all the films and TV shows. Libraries have them all, for free!
The sections describing how libraries provided information over the phone brought back many pleasant memories. I used to rely heavily on the library’s information desk for all kinds of questions. Slowly over the years, I started to rely more in the internet for instant information. Reading this book reminded me of how much more dangerous that is. Calling the library might settle a bet, but consulting the internet is likely to settle nothing, as so much wrong information is available there. The library was once trusted as a reliable source of facts. I wonder, is it still? I am sure many if not most people would turn to the internet before calling the library and most have learned that that information on the internet cannot always be trusted. Are people now equally suspicious of the information provided by libraries?
I was fascinated with the Lummis story. Amazing things that occurred in our country. Also fascinating the news attention the library drew.
The initial chapters of the book are storytelling. Susan Orlean tells a good story and with great attention to detail. When she talks about John Szabo and the current library, her attention to detail strikes me as a fiction writer's approach to reality. Interesting. Harry Peak is the villain. The library is the victim.
She is trying to get us to think of a library as a living, breathing organism rather than a repository. As she goes into talking about book burning and John Leonard Orr, I lost sense of the storytelling and the book seems to wander. I read "Fahrenheit 451' years ago. Nothing new to me. It went from a fiction-writer's approach to non-fiction to a non-fiction writer's approach to non-fiction. Much of my life is fact-centered and information-focused. This felt familiar but I missed the voice of the fiction-writer. I don't know where it is going. I want more story-telling.
I really wanted to love this book, mainly because I so appreciate Orlean’s affinity for books and libraries and applaud her for taking such a deep dive into the subject. Ultimately, though, the book felt self indulgent and repetitive to me. She routinely rattles off five or six examples to illustrate a point, when two or three would more than suffice. She covers issues like the debate over tearing down vs remodeling the library at least three times. It’s almost like she’s checking to see if we’re paying attention. The most disappointing to me, however, is the way in which she handles the true crime elements. She presents some facts and even goes on some flights of fancy but, in the end, doesn’t really have a point of view. She sets up Harry Peak as her go to fall guy, then in the end pulls the rug out by showing that all the evidence could be wrong and she doesn’t really know what she thinks or how she feels about it. Disappointing.
On a scale of 10 that Orr wildness is more of a 10 than Bo Derek.
Maybe it’s just me, but I’m having issues with the stream of consciousness style of writing between the chapters. There are a lot of interesting stories, no doubt. I just wish the author would have clumped the timeframes together instead of jumping around.
I completely get this. I'm torn between feeling like I'm getting whiplash from the jumping around and enjoying coming back to topics that I thought were completed. I think at the end of the day, I settle on enjoying the jumping around because when she circles back around to a topic I find myself going, "Oh yea! We were talking about this earlier!" It's almost like finding an old friend in an odd way haha. I've also been ready to put the book down for the night, then look at the next chapter and realize it's about a topic that was discussed earlier and end up reading another chapter so I can get more of the story. This has happened on more than one occasion.
Paper books are actually super in! Especially among the college set, here's an encouraging read from The Atlantic about the state of college libraries: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/10/college-students-dont-want-fancy-libraries/599455/
Great article. Thanks for the share.
I also had a super difficult time with all the book burning thru history. I found it enormously demoralizing how callous we as humans can be about culture, not that I didn't already know, she merely highlighted it in a new way. Then I had to call myself back and remember that I didn't know about all that "lost" treasure 20 minutes ago, so why was I making myself upset?
Walter - I was reading the same Atlantic article this week - I think the shift in libraries is good, but books will always the main need, though there may also be a quantifiable difference in need between college and public libraries as well