This is it! The last section. If you spent the past week catching up, feel free to hop back into the first three (1, 2, 3) discussion threads.
Next week, we’ll have a big discussion thread to go over the entire book. Tomorrow, I’ll send out a link to vote on the next book!
Last week was a lot about the historical reigns of the librarians, this past week more about the contemporary issues, the recovery from the fire, and Harry Peak.
Do you think Harry did it?
The Los Angles Library has an immense library of orchestral scores, and also as a city has more musicians than any other city on earth. Would you consider this a coincidence?
Arson has a 1% conviction rate, and the techniques of the field are rapidly evolving. How do you feel about this information?
“There are so many things in a library, so many books and so much stuff, that I sometimes wondered if any single person could possibly know what all of it is. I preferred thinking that no one does — I liked the idea that the library is more expansive and grand than one single mind, and that it requires many people together to form a complete index of its bounty.” Thoughts?
I’ve loved the conversation in the comments — if you haven’t, jump in this week or a previous week — and look forward to next week, when we have our final discussion for this book and announce the next one. Expect an email to vote in your inbox tomorrow, and this is a great time to encourage a friend to subscribe.
I think my absolute favorite part of the entire book though might have been hearing the questions people called the trivia hotline asking about. I was cracking up. I think they also discussed this when talking about the information desk in another section as well.
I will say that I went back and forth on Harry a lot during the book, as it would seem Orlean did as well! It’s clear that he had issues but as to the the fire I think the arson researcher put it best, that they’re probably not actually looking for a man here, that the library was a firetrap and the investigation was over-certain.
I will say that nobody comes off particularly well in the suit/countersuit, but Sheahan (?), the lawyer who took on the initial defense, was pretty fun with his “Flam-bono” angle.
I felt that the section dealing with homeless people and those who experience mental health issues in their lives as part of the greater library community was well written. I worked in downtown Indianapolis for 33 years and also frequented the central library there. It was/is a situation in constant flux - certainly in a large metropolitan area - and the author presented it in a compelling and dignified manner. That a library and EVERYTHING within it can be such an integral component of some persons' daily (hourly?) existence is very thought provoking for me. And as the author relates, the library employees - whatever their specific duties - are what enables this "eye of the storm" experience to work. The quote from Chief David Aguirre, head of Library Security will always stay with me (actually, I wrote it down): "I don't care who it is. I don't care if it's the mayor or if it's a transient. Anyone can empathize with someone else for two minutes, can't they."
I, too, went back and forth on Harry's involvement in the fire, but if I were to sit on a jury with the evidence presented here, I would not have voted to convict. Too many unknowns -- especially with the subsequent discussion of the unknowns of fire forensics. For sure, Harry was certainly self-centered, celebrity-seeking, and a yarn spinner, but no, I don't think he did it.
I don't know if this comment fits in this section, but the topic I found most fascinating in this book is the development of the modern library as a place where community and friendship is sought and built, where all people can find resources for living a productive life and how libraries are morphing to serve the needs of people and not just a repository of information.
Librarian training need to include more social work background. They are doing the work of angels.
Hi! I don’t know if Harry started the fire or not...there were conflicting reports and I started out believing he was guilty but ended up being undecided. I actually finished the book last week,it was due back. I am and always will be an avid library patron. Thanks for posting a picture of the the Los Angeles public library. It looks just as I imagined it. I also love the fact that the library has become so much more to so many people. Also I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the public library has become so much more than just books. It has always held my dreams and ambitions.
This was a really interesting section. I think I ended up more convinced that Harry did it than that he didn't, but barely. The fact that he couldn't keep a story straight to save his life, the weird comments he made, and other details were just weird. However, if it came down to it there's definitely not enough to convict since it's all circumstantial, so if I was on his jury there's no way I'd vote that he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I also didn't realize how unsure arson investigations were. I feel like they're talked about as if they always can figure out where the fire started or what started it, but it turns out that's not really the case at all.
The arson discussion was interesting. It sounds like arson investigation is akin to medical knowledge, and we are only slightly past the bloodletting and "humors" phase. I don't think Harry did it (although I really didn't care much about him -- the other elements of the book were much more compelling.)
I remember hearing about how octopuses (i?) don't have a central brain, that the work is distributed throughout the arms. Libraries are similar. Nobody could be expected to know what all is included in the library. Though I thought it was pretty funny that librarians' friends ask them ridiculous trivia questions.
I don’t think Harry set the fire. I did find his many different alibis to be entertaining but very frustrating for the detectives who were trying to determine the cause of the fire.
I haven't finished, but I just read the part where libraries were integrated into many people's lives. Reading about the part where people would scribbled messages and thoughts into books for strangers and people forgotten to find was touching. (pg 176 hardcover version).
I don't know if Harry did it but they really wanted a culprit and he was very convenient. Honestly, I could have done without the whole Harry story. It wasn't interesting to me in the least. I was fascinated by all the information about the library, though. So many interesting things it houses like orchestral scores. The trivia hotline was a hoot. Our library system also runs classes for citizenship, ESL, tutoring, etc. I really enjoyed hearing some of the back story on those programs, particularly how they address the homeless population.
Not surprising, the tit-for-tat lawsuits was a pathetic part of this book. I'm sure lawyers had a lot of fun at the expense of Harry and the LA taxpayers.
I found it heartwarming to read that at least 50,000 came to reopening of Library in Oct. 1993.
Peak sued City for $15 million. City sued Peak for $236 million. LA paid Peak $35,000. Peak died April 13, 1993.
I thought that Peak was trying to make his life more interesting; it's like he kept revising a script of a movie with him starring in it.
Gates Foundation connected every American library to internet - ended Dec. 2018 - 20 years and $1 billion.
700,000 books were wet or smoky.
Eva Mitnick - sees libraries as info and knowledge centers.
I learned of the many services and resources - computer center - 55 computers; 2,000 orchestral scores; costumes; props; restaurant menus; had marriage license bureau, seed exchange; theater troupes; the terrific Info Now Department and their variety of questions.
I learned that librarians are very proud to be so!
An earthquake caused 100,000+ books to bounce off shelves.
I was shocked and stunned that arson has a 1% conviction rate.
Libraries have long ceased to be just libraries!
A very worthwhile and interesting book! Really good choice! Thank you!
I wonder at what point most libraries will be digital and a vast majority of their services wont be paper-based books. I kind of like that idea (no risk of fires, maybe viruses, etc) for the bulk of libraries. I love paper books and own way too many. But I also own many ebooks and audio books. I admit, without any embarrassment, that I read this book on audio on my drive into work this past month.
I do not know if Harry started the fire ... a fire felt inevitable. I think there is a 95% chance that a fire was going to start at some point given the shoddy condition the library was already in. I feel confident that Harry was at the library and had a series of unfortunate events. He may have even seen a fire and ran in a fit of fear. Or he may have started it for no good reason, but I don’t think it fits his personality (from what was presented).
As for the whole arson and chapters on Harry, I wonder if Ms. Orlean had a kernel of an idea for the book and saw Harry as perhaps the humanizing element of the story, but ultimately it fell flat. If the arson and subsequent legal battles were just a chapter or two in the book I would have felt satisfied. I think there were about a dozen librarians presented that would have served as better and more fascinating core to the story. I sense a lot of work and time went into the research around Harry and just couldn’t be dropped despite it leading to an unsatisfying dead end.
After the first few chapters I was pretty sure Harry did it, but then in the final chapters I was going back and forth. There are a couple too many suspicious things, like the doctor also changing his alibi to fit Harry's new stories, combined with people remembering seeing Harry at the library during the fire. But as others have pointed out, this is all circumstantial evidence and doesn't prove anything. I think Harry was definitely at the library that day, but I'm now unsure if he was anywhere near a flame.
The arson investigation techniques both surprised me and didn't surprise me at all - I was always impressed that an arson investigator could look at a burned out husk of a building and determine where the fire started, but now a number of those assumptions have turned out to be less than accurate. I guess if I ever need to commit a crime, I know what to do. :)
Initially, I did think Harry had done it. Understanding the over-reliance on the notion of a fire started by human hand tempered my belief somewhat, but that's still statistical, not indicative of the answer for a single fire. So, given his fabulism, and the apparent timeline of his stories, I'm still inclined to think he did start it. Intentionality? No clue. He clearly was not too tightly stitched to "reality". Pretty sad life, one might think, but maybe he didn't see it that way.
Libraries are vast. I don’t like their quiet ambiance (I have terrible tinnitus), but I appreciate the availability of so many art forms in libraries. As to whether Harry did it, I didn’t see convincing evidence. Forensics are not as scientific as many people believe. I think firefighters are self-selected in part because they are drawn to fire—sometimes as arsonists. They know how to plan and cover up, which helps contribute to the low arrest and conviction rate. I would have focused on all firefighters at the scene.
I seem to have somehow gotten the pace of the threads mixed up. I wrote my final thoughts on the book already in thread three. My apologies. I will try to repost them next week. Once again, I am enjoying the conversation.
I think my absolute favorite part of the entire book though might have been hearing the questions people called the trivia hotline asking about. I was cracking up. I think they also discussed this when talking about the information desk in another section as well.
I will say that I went back and forth on Harry a lot during the book, as it would seem Orlean did as well! It’s clear that he had issues but as to the the fire I think the arson researcher put it best, that they’re probably not actually looking for a man here, that the library was a firetrap and the investigation was over-certain.
I will say that nobody comes off particularly well in the suit/countersuit, but Sheahan (?), the lawyer who took on the initial defense, was pretty fun with his “Flam-bono” angle.
I felt that the section dealing with homeless people and those who experience mental health issues in their lives as part of the greater library community was well written. I worked in downtown Indianapolis for 33 years and also frequented the central library there. It was/is a situation in constant flux - certainly in a large metropolitan area - and the author presented it in a compelling and dignified manner. That a library and EVERYTHING within it can be such an integral component of some persons' daily (hourly?) existence is very thought provoking for me. And as the author relates, the library employees - whatever their specific duties - are what enables this "eye of the storm" experience to work. The quote from Chief David Aguirre, head of Library Security will always stay with me (actually, I wrote it down): "I don't care who it is. I don't care if it's the mayor or if it's a transient. Anyone can empathize with someone else for two minutes, can't they."
I, too, went back and forth on Harry's involvement in the fire, but if I were to sit on a jury with the evidence presented here, I would not have voted to convict. Too many unknowns -- especially with the subsequent discussion of the unknowns of fire forensics. For sure, Harry was certainly self-centered, celebrity-seeking, and a yarn spinner, but no, I don't think he did it.
I don't know if this comment fits in this section, but the topic I found most fascinating in this book is the development of the modern library as a place where community and friendship is sought and built, where all people can find resources for living a productive life and how libraries are morphing to serve the needs of people and not just a repository of information.
Librarian training need to include more social work background. They are doing the work of angels.
Nearing last call for favorite Title Cards. 33 Revolutions Per Minute: A History of Protest Songs, from Billie Holiday to Green Day (2011)
Hi! I don’t know if Harry started the fire or not...there were conflicting reports and I started out believing he was guilty but ended up being undecided. I actually finished the book last week,it was due back. I am and always will be an avid library patron. Thanks for posting a picture of the the Los Angeles public library. It looks just as I imagined it. I also love the fact that the library has become so much more to so many people. Also I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the public library has become so much more than just books. It has always held my dreams and ambitions.
This was a really interesting section. I think I ended up more convinced that Harry did it than that he didn't, but barely. The fact that he couldn't keep a story straight to save his life, the weird comments he made, and other details were just weird. However, if it came down to it there's definitely not enough to convict since it's all circumstantial, so if I was on his jury there's no way I'd vote that he was guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. I also didn't realize how unsure arson investigations were. I feel like they're talked about as if they always can figure out where the fire started or what started it, but it turns out that's not really the case at all.
The arson discussion was interesting. It sounds like arson investigation is akin to medical knowledge, and we are only slightly past the bloodletting and "humors" phase. I don't think Harry did it (although I really didn't care much about him -- the other elements of the book were much more compelling.)
I remember hearing about how octopuses (i?) don't have a central brain, that the work is distributed throughout the arms. Libraries are similar. Nobody could be expected to know what all is included in the library. Though I thought it was pretty funny that librarians' friends ask them ridiculous trivia questions.
I don’t think Harry set the fire. I did find his many different alibis to be entertaining but very frustrating for the detectives who were trying to determine the cause of the fire.
I haven't finished, but I just read the part where libraries were integrated into many people's lives. Reading about the part where people would scribbled messages and thoughts into books for strangers and people forgotten to find was touching. (pg 176 hardcover version).
I don't know if Harry did it but they really wanted a culprit and he was very convenient. Honestly, I could have done without the whole Harry story. It wasn't interesting to me in the least. I was fascinated by all the information about the library, though. So many interesting things it houses like orchestral scores. The trivia hotline was a hoot. Our library system also runs classes for citizenship, ESL, tutoring, etc. I really enjoyed hearing some of the back story on those programs, particularly how they address the homeless population.
Not surprising, the tit-for-tat lawsuits was a pathetic part of this book. I'm sure lawyers had a lot of fun at the expense of Harry and the LA taxpayers.
I really enjoyed this book and the discussion.
I found it heartwarming to read that at least 50,000 came to reopening of Library in Oct. 1993.
Peak sued City for $15 million. City sued Peak for $236 million. LA paid Peak $35,000. Peak died April 13, 1993.
I thought that Peak was trying to make his life more interesting; it's like he kept revising a script of a movie with him starring in it.
Gates Foundation connected every American library to internet - ended Dec. 2018 - 20 years and $1 billion.
700,000 books were wet or smoky.
Eva Mitnick - sees libraries as info and knowledge centers.
I learned of the many services and resources - computer center - 55 computers; 2,000 orchestral scores; costumes; props; restaurant menus; had marriage license bureau, seed exchange; theater troupes; the terrific Info Now Department and their variety of questions.
I learned that librarians are very proud to be so!
An earthquake caused 100,000+ books to bounce off shelves.
I was shocked and stunned that arson has a 1% conviction rate.
Libraries have long ceased to be just libraries!
A very worthwhile and interesting book! Really good choice! Thank you!
I wonder at what point most libraries will be digital and a vast majority of their services wont be paper-based books. I kind of like that idea (no risk of fires, maybe viruses, etc) for the bulk of libraries. I love paper books and own way too many. But I also own many ebooks and audio books. I admit, without any embarrassment, that I read this book on audio on my drive into work this past month.
I do not know if Harry started the fire ... a fire felt inevitable. I think there is a 95% chance that a fire was going to start at some point given the shoddy condition the library was already in. I feel confident that Harry was at the library and had a series of unfortunate events. He may have even seen a fire and ran in a fit of fear. Or he may have started it for no good reason, but I don’t think it fits his personality (from what was presented).
As for the whole arson and chapters on Harry, I wonder if Ms. Orlean had a kernel of an idea for the book and saw Harry as perhaps the humanizing element of the story, but ultimately it fell flat. If the arson and subsequent legal battles were just a chapter or two in the book I would have felt satisfied. I think there were about a dozen librarians presented that would have served as better and more fascinating core to the story. I sense a lot of work and time went into the research around Harry and just couldn’t be dropped despite it leading to an unsatisfying dead end.
Juliette Lewis and the women of Pussy Riot (can this be a real band?)! Love the section on the calls the Info Now Department get.
After the first few chapters I was pretty sure Harry did it, but then in the final chapters I was going back and forth. There are a couple too many suspicious things, like the doctor also changing his alibi to fit Harry's new stories, combined with people remembering seeing Harry at the library during the fire. But as others have pointed out, this is all circumstantial evidence and doesn't prove anything. I think Harry was definitely at the library that day, but I'm now unsure if he was anywhere near a flame.
The arson investigation techniques both surprised me and didn't surprise me at all - I was always impressed that an arson investigator could look at a burned out husk of a building and determine where the fire started, but now a number of those assumptions have turned out to be less than accurate. I guess if I ever need to commit a crime, I know what to do. :)
Initially, I did think Harry had done it. Understanding the over-reliance on the notion of a fire started by human hand tempered my belief somewhat, but that's still statistical, not indicative of the answer for a single fire. So, given his fabulism, and the apparent timeline of his stories, I'm still inclined to think he did start it. Intentionality? No clue. He clearly was not too tightly stitched to "reality". Pretty sad life, one might think, but maybe he didn't see it that way.
I guess will never know what in the library caused the fire, but I'm 99% certain it wasn't done by Harry or anyone else.
Libraries are vast. I don’t like their quiet ambiance (I have terrible tinnitus), but I appreciate the availability of so many art forms in libraries. As to whether Harry did it, I didn’t see convincing evidence. Forensics are not as scientific as many people believe. I think firefighters are self-selected in part because they are drawn to fire—sometimes as arsonists. They know how to plan and cover up, which helps contribute to the low arrest and conviction rate. I would have focused on all firefighters at the scene.
I seem to have somehow gotten the pace of the threads mixed up. I wrote my final thoughts on the book already in thread three. My apologies. I will try to repost them next week. Once again, I am enjoying the conversation.